Lyme & Biaxin

So I wanted to put out a q to all of you knowledgeable lymies here ....

While in my 20s I took about 15-20 courses of biaxin for sinus infections.

I always felt better on them and then the longer I was away, the worse I would feel (I would relapse basically).

My health deteriorated a lot over this period in general...

So I was recently suprised to read that biaxin is a common ab used for lyme.

I don't recall having any herx symptoms at all with it...

Any thoughts on this??

tia, shari

actually.... I just remembered something else

my last course of biaxin lasted for about 6-7 weeks and for the first time i did NOT feel better... only felt worse.

i thought my bacteria had become resistant, but maybe that was a herx????
Shari,
I wish I knew the answer to your question. from what I've been reading, it seems the response to abx is very individual. No two cases seem alike. I think that is one of the problems and often why the drs. switch patients' abx all around. It gets very confusing. Differentiating between a herx and a bad reaction is difficult. The lines are blurred.

It's an interesting history and one worth checking into.

Pace
Hi Shari , The findings of the Mayo clinic back in 1999 was that sinus infections have both a fungal and bacterial element. The general conclusion was that a fungal infection downgrades the immune system this allows a bacterial infection to move in & flourish .. Treating the underlying fungal cause is essential in looking to cure a sinus infection. Seems to make sense of your puzzling reactions to clarithromycin [biaxin�Herx is the most overused/abused word in our community . as in Herxing our way to a cure , it's wishful thinking

I have all the references if you[or anyone ] need them �Paul

Thanks pace!

That was a helpful response. So it is like candida and other bacteria in that individual response to different meds can vary.

Ya, that makes sense.. I guess while my history might possibly hold clues, I probably can't glean anything firm from it.

Interesting though, isn't it? all of that biaxin.

Hope you are feeling well today.

shari

Hi Paul!

Good to hear from you

You are right - I was caught in that awful bacteria/fungal cycle and had no idea.

I finally did manage to escape, with diflucan and some great suggestions from the book 'sinus survival' - nasal irrigation, nutritient supplementation, dietary and environmental changes, skilled relaxtion, etc.

I just wonder in hindsight if the biaxin was treating more than just the staph in my sinuses.

Congrats on winning your long battle with ibs btw. Amazing isn't how this stuff can actually finally go away??

So what you are doing these days - any salt/C, MP...

Hope you are well, shari

Hi Paul,

Would you share the references. I used to have a ref, but lost it when my computer crashed!

Thanks,
Pace
Paul, I have to agree with you that the word Herx is way overused. In most long term illnesses there are going to be ups and downs. That's just the way it goes. I could even argue that although the Herx effect is real, one shouldn't feel worse after a Herx but better. It may be that when an undesirable microbial is killed off, and its contents are released, the toxic byproducts from its metabolism are no longer a factor, so the net sum may be one feels better after a real Herx, not worse.
References ,the link to the original article no longer works..the following is a statment from the Mayo Clinic..Paul

Many studies here at the Mayo Clinic have added evidence to our thinking
that chronic rhinosinusitis is caused by an immune reaction to fungi in the
nose. Our original study linking chronic rhinosinusitis to fungi in the
nose, which was published in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings in September 1999,
has been reproduced and confirmed by a sinus center in Europe (ENT
University Hospital in Graz, Austria).

There are currently 16 studies at Mayo Clinic Rochester to further
investigate the role of fungi in inflammatory diseases of the respiratory
tract.
In addition, researchers from the Allergic Diseases Research Laboratory at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester found that certain white blood cells
called T-Lymphocytes are reacting to the fungi and were producing the kind of inflammation we see in the sinuses, and that healthy people did
not react in that way. This work was presented at the 2001 Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology and
will be published soon.

The evidence was so convincing that the National Institute of Health (NIH)has given Mayo Clinic a $2.5 million grant to further investigate the
mechanisms behind this immunologic response to the fungi.

If you have chronic sinusitis�that is, a sinus inflammation that persists
for three months or longer�we recommend that you see your personal
physician or an ear, nose and throat specialist (otorhinolaryngologist) for
the appropriate treatment for this disease. Many times the disease is
associated with asthma or allergies and treatment of those associated
problems tends to help the chronic sinusitis.

Antibiotics don�t help chronic sinusitis in the long run because they target
bacteria, which are not usually the cause of chronic sinusitis.
Anti-histamines, nasal steroid sprays and systemic steroids are the
mainstays of treatment today, depending on the symptoms of the patient.

Over-the-counter medications, including salt-water nasal washes and mist
sprays, are useful in treating the symptoms of chronic sinusitis, but do not
eliminate the inflammation.

Dept of Otorhinolaryngology
Mayo Clinic
Rochester, Minnesota

This latest report supports the link with CFS [ME] an

d fungal infectionhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3141773.stm

Stop press information http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040324072619.htm

See Medline 12464951 for results of a study using antifungal drugs to treat sinusitis.

Hi Shari,
Clarithromycin [Biaxin] is a front line drug use against Lyme! ..if you read my site you will see that the rise in Lyme mirrors the rise in many so called auto immune conditions ..I believe that is it no coincidence �The rise is a a consequence of the altered conditions in the gut brought about by yeast!!!

Thanks for the pat on the back for beating yeast [IBS] it�s a bit belated ,,I won the battle with yeast back in 2001 �I have been treating very clear symptoms of Lyme since ..The battle is going well ..Too soon to say I�m cured but lets say I�m enjoying good health at the moment , I�m experimenting with a superior probiotic ..one you will not see on any shelf in a shop �I�m pleased with initial results .

Salt and Vit C diet for people in our position is a very dicey thing to adopt .We are vulnerable, chronic infection reduces our chances of dealing with many challenges including toxic amounts of salt. To deliberately add a toxic amount of salt to your diet in our position is just plain stupid .

I do think the salt is killing CWD bacteria , I do think they are very vulnerable to many treatments when in the CWD form �I also think the seat of infection is in the gut , so the doses with conventional treatments will be just too small , out gut flora is measured by weight ..and any treatment must reflect that ..Dr Cranton uses triple Antifungal therapy to treat yeast ..i can understand why ..Paul The dangers salt poses to your healthhttp://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/news/high_salt_consumption_can_cause_a_range_of_health_problems.htm

Salt Toxicity�� read the article then take the test
http://www.foodandhealth.com/cpecourses/salt_new.php

Absolutely, well said �ongoing herx is a myth, it�s a reaction that is only associated with the onset of treatment ..the notion that large amount of pathogens are being killed off weeks and months after the onset of treatment is ridiculous�.. Paul

Paul - I have to agree with you again about uploading large doses of salt as being an unwanted stresser to the body. I'm new to Lyme disease treatments, but not new to health issues and I think taking in that much unnecessary sodium would almost certainly be disruptive to one's functioning, even irrespective of blood pressure concerns. I actually have too low blood pressure, and still, at least at this point am not willing to consider the salt therapy. I have my own theory as to why some have benefitted from it, but don't have time to type it now (I'm a hen-peck typist).
Paul,

You still taking the benicar? What about abx of any kind? Any other meds?

Exactly how would you characterize your health at this point?

Any brain fog?
muscle spasms?
digestion issues of any kind?
fatigue?
sleep issues of any kind? insomnia ever?
how's your body temperature? cold hands?

dpd, i must say, you would make a good doctor :)
hmmm..... i'm not sure that's a compliment :)

you have me wondering again!
lol :) perceptive - see that's a good dr trait
ya well somebody just made it to my list :)
your patient one i hope :)

ohh, that list..
Thanks Paul....

>>Clarithromycin [Biaxin] is a front line drug use against Lyme!

Interesting. Ya, see I took a lot of this in my 20's and suspected even back then that it was tackling more than just my sinuses as i just felt *so much* better with it.

>>..if you read my site you will see that the rise in Lyme mirrors the rise in many so called auto immune conditions ..I believe that is it no coincidence �The rise is a a consequence of the altered conditions in the gut brought about by yeast!!!

I had autoimmune activity with a 4+ candida infection.... fortunately it reversed along with it.

>>Thanks for the pat on the back for beating yeast [IBS] it�s a bit belated ,,I won the battle with yeast back in 2001 �

Oh, I was just responding to a previous post of yours to me - guess you don't remember :) congrats once again :)))

>>I have been treating very clear symptoms of Lyme since ..The battle is going well ..Too soon to say I�m cured but lets say I�m enjoying good health at the moment

Glad to hear it..

>>m experimenting with a superior probiotic ..one you will not see on any shelf in a shop �I�m pleased with initial results .

Interesting. Please do share more if/when you'd like!

>>Salt and Vit C diet for people in our position is a very dicey thing to adopt .We are vulnerable, chronic infection reduces our chances of dealing with many challenges including toxic amounts of salt. To deliberately add a toxic amount of salt to your diet in our position is just plain stupid .

I suppose a revelant q here is 'how much is toxic' ... as dpd has noted, our ancestors ingested a lot

Think it also depends to some degree on the source...

And then you gotta consider that the pharmaceutical alternative is inherently toxic

>>I do think the salt is killing CWD bacteria , I do think they are very vulnerable to many treatments when in the CWD form �

Interesting... ya i do actually get a lot of dieoff just from real salt.

>>I also think the seat of infection is in the gut , so the doses with conventional treatments will be just too small , out gut flora is measured by weight ..and any treatment must reflect that ..Dr Cranton uses triple Antifungal therapy to treat yeast ..i can understand why ..Paul

To be honest, Cranton's therapy would have absolutely done me in. If it's any indication of his judgment, this guy actually told me (via someone else) that my severely disabling mcs was a 'good thing.'

Sherry Rogers advocates a much more multi faced approach. She believes that many things have the ability to alter our gut flora, and in my experience that is true.

Believe it or not, I was able to knock out a 4+ candida infection with a modest amount of diflucan (50 to 100 mg daily), a STRICT sugar/mercury/pesticide/preservative free rotational diet, detoxifying my air and water, antibacterial herbs - particularly uva ursi, nutritient supps, enzymes, probios, enemas, and lots of rest and skilled relaxation.

I do appreciate where you are coming from though. Its hard to conceive of some tiny gun changing over several lbs of gut flora. Its always been a mystery to me as to how I can notice any difference with just one or two probio caps. I have no idea....

>>The dangers salt poses to your health

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/news/high_salt_consumption_can_cause_a_range_of_health_problems.htm

Salt Toxicity�� read the article then take the test
http://www.foodandhealth.com/cpecourses/salt_new.php
Thanks - agreed, something to be careful with!!
oops that was supposed to be 'multi faceted' not 'multi faced,' lol